James Van Praagh

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Welcome everyone to our Book Club which today finds us discussing "The Secret Life of Bees" by Sue Monk Kidd. Our Book Chat leader today is {{Rudie}}, and once I turn it over to her, she will post a series of questions about the book and we can all add our comments and discuss.

A synopsis of the book is posted here for you. Even if you have not read the book you will enjoy reading the Book Chat discussion!

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) I would like to tell you just a bit about our Book Chat leader, Rudie. Rudie is a LOONNG time JVP Chat friend, and always been one to push having the book clubs here...haaaa. Rudie has just recently published her own book...and it is titled, "Pipe Dreams: One Teacher's Journey," and her real name is A.R. Magaletta McClure...in case you want to look up the author...haaa

It is published through Author House and available at: http://www.authorhouse.com      

We are glad she has offered to lead today's Book Club on the book title "The Secret Life of Bees" by Sue Monk Kidd.

And now...I'm excited to hand this over to Rudie!!!

(NascentAngelEyes) ::claps::

(rudie) ty Cammy, I'm thrilled and totally honored to be doing this today...ty nascent eyes.

The Secret Life of Bees (2002) is Sue Monk Kidd's 1st novel. It is set in South Carolina in the summer of 1964...mainly in the small town of Tiburon. This is said to be a coming of age tale, but I found it to be a richly woven tale of a 14-year-old girl who finds that a mother does not necessarily have to be biological.

Lily Owens, after running off with Rosaleen, her housekeeper and nanny, finds herself living with a household of strong, powerful women. They nurture both her and each other, all the while surrounded by a black Madonna.

Bees are the mainstay of the calendar sisters...May, August and June.

This novel is literally drenched in love, forgiveness and the realization that in Kidd's words, "No person is perfect...we need to let the puzzle of the human heart just be what it is."

Sue started this novel as a short story in 1993 and it took her 3 years to complete it. Before writing it, she made collages filled with pink houses, trios of African American women, hats and even a wailing wall. She gave credence to both me and I'm sure hosts of other writers on just how to get started with a story.

This novel was filled with so many memorable quotes, similes and metaphors, that I could have made a book of them on my own.

It was difficult to narrow down the questions I'll pose, but at this point I will open up our chat with my first question...please feel free to add your comments as I have tried to relate the book back to our lives as people of the world.

Lily Owens grew up motherless, but in the 'Secret Life of Bees,' manages to find a house full of them (women that is).  Have you ever had a woman in your life who wasn't a biological parent? Did you have to leave home to find them?

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Yes...I have...she was my best friend who also had "mom" qualities about her. I met her when I moved to Los Angeles...we are still very close today.

(Promogal) I was blessed to have a mother who lived to 94 1/2, but I am also blessed to have found many other special women to mentor and nurture me.

(BJM) wow promo

(helena) my mother left when I was 3. I found her again at age 29. I was raised in institutions as a state ward. The in-between years were filled with many inspiring and positive role models. These women still impact on my life today.

(Promogal) ((Helena))

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) {{Promo}}

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) {{Helena}}

(BJM) I have lived in different places where I've found strong women to help me.

(Dr_D) A woman in your life...meaning?.....mother figure......mentor...advisor......I've had all......

(rudie) I think that we often meet women in our life, who we think of as mothers or close friends, that nurture us.

(green) I have had many "mothers."  Women who have impacted my life, by their choices and service to humanity.

(BJM) Lily found so many mothers&

(rudie) ((Helena))

(BJM) &even mother Mary.

(helena) I know I wouldn't be who I am today without them.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) yes...I think women "find" each other wherever they are...and different ones come to you at different times in your life. Much like JVP says guardian angels do...when you need a certain one, they come to you...when you don't need them anymore, they leave.

(rudie) lily found mothers when she wasn't even looking.

(joyful) I think Lily was always looking for a mother&

(BJM) yes! 

(Dr_D) longing at least

(helena) I can so relate to that Cammy.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) I totally agree, joyful...

(BJM) lily had angels with her too&

(Promogal) All three of these women were also longing to mother someone.

(joyful) yes, promo

(BJM) &they told her that her jar was open and spoke to her at other times too.

(rudie) at first I thought that Rosaleen was her mother, but I began to realize that even June nurtured her in her own way, although I think August was the one that was closest to her heart.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) YES...so true, Promo...even the Lady of the Chains Daughters were mothering as well...each other and then to Lily.

(Promogal) I agree with that CAMMY

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) rudie...I would agree...August was the one that became that true mother figure for her.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) hi guy...we are discussing the book, "Secret Life of Bees."

(rudie) I do think that when we least expect it women come to us in a way that comforts us and helps us to mother ourselves.

(BJM) August's connection to her bio mother was very significant in that she was a mother to them both&

(joyful) don't you think that women tend to 'mother' each other?

(BJM) &almost lily's grandmother.

(Peps) Some women mother anything in sight!  lol

(joyful) so true, peps   lol

(cameesh) That's me peps, big mamma!

(Promogal) And when August asks Lily how she knew to come to that place...and Lily shows here the picture of the black Madonna...

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) BJM...Yes...and the fact that Lily's mom, Deborah, from spirit led Lily right to the one mother figure Deborah truly had.

(BJM) yep

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) joyful...yes, I do think that as women we have that innate nurturing thing in us.

(helena) I mother well, having had no mother growing up ....

(rudie) Let me pose another question to you&

(BJM) go ahead rudie

(rudie) Do you believe in coincidence? Was lily 'finding' the black Madonna of breznichar of bohemia happenstance, or do you think that fate played in her finding the picture of the black Madonna at the frogmore? Stew general store?

(Promogal) I think her mother's spirit was involved.

(BJM) she was divinely guided absolutely.

(Dr_D) I don't believe in coincidence...when things happen...they are planned....spirit is usually involved in some way.

(joyful) I don't believe in coincidence either...I believe in God-incidence.

(green) Her need to be mothered created a vacuum in her life, which had to be filled.

(helena) I haven't read the book but I don't believe in coincidences either&

(rudie) I think she was guided as well...I can't imagine that wild a happening?

(helena) &me thinks I best be going book shopping next week!

(Dr_D) If you recall the movie "Dragonfly"...you see similar spiritual connections&

(BJM) Great book Helena.

(rudie) Helena you will love this one.

(helena) I feel parallels already.

(Peps) Coincidence is spirit tossing several things in our path at the same time to make sure we get the point.

(BJM) Oh I see what you mean Dr D!

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) I feel it was literally spirit led for her...to find the bag in the attic which led her to the desire to go to Tiburon...once at Tiburon the FIRST place she goes to has the answer to the black Madonna label...and that place happens to be RIGHT THERE in town!! It was totally spirit led.

(rudie) Maybe no coincidence you are here today Helena?

(helena) Prolly; right on rudie!

(Dr_D) True Cammy

(Monark) She was also 'called' by the bees in her room before she ever thought about leaving her original home.

(Dr_D) The bees were a validation.

(guy) Cammy, is this book fictional?

(Dr_D) Yes, fictional.

(rudie) it even made August wonder at the very end exactly how she found the pink house.

(BJM) yes Monark

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) joyful...I love that phrase..."God-incedence"...haaa

(Promogal) Spirit had been working on her for a long time.

[13:36] (BJM) and the voice told her "your jar is open."

(rudie) That's right Monark! I had something very similar like that happen to me right before a big event happening in my own life...bees in the walls.

(BJM) really rudie?

(Dr_D) wow!

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) I mean, "finding" this stapled paper bag in the attic ALL these years after her mom has been gone, even when her father destroyed everything else about her mom...then starting to "hear" voices in her head to "fly"...all spirit stuff, baby!

(BJM) lol Cammy - totally

(rudie) Lets talk a bit about May...one of my favorite characters (by the way if there is a ever a movie can you see Whoopi Goldberg playing her??)

(Promogal) Without a doubt

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) lol

(BJM) I see Whoopi as May

(cameesh) yes perfect

(BJM) I mean august

(Monark) Either Whoopi or Ellen Degeneres :)

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) lol

(Promogal) Oprah as August

(Dr_D) yeah...she did pretty good in ghost.....lol

(rudie) May built a wall to help herself deal with her pain/grief.  Do you think we need rituals to help us through grief/suffering? Did May's help her?

(joyful) oh, yes, we NEED rituals starting with a funeral and going from there

(Dr_D) I think we need whatever may work for each of us individually......

(joyful) I loved the idea of the wall

(helena) rituals help us work thru everything

(joyful) something physical that keeps getting built upon

(rudie) May had a ritual that I found very appealing and have suggested to others...writing it down&she places hers within stones and gives it up to spirit.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Rudie...YES...I totally believe in rituals...and heading out to nature is a great way to gain balance and to refresh yourself when you are grieving or sad or depressed. My maternal grandmother was Native American and when I was very, VERY little she taught me about how they go out into the woods and wail at the trees when they are in deep sorrow.

(rudie) For those of you that haven't read the book...May places her pain on small slips of paper and places them between stones that she has laid down in her yard

(green) Yes, rituals allow us to journey inward, and then back out into the world.

(sunrise) Oh I like that&green!

(Dr_D) Could be a large Reiki Grid....lol

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) lol DrD...

(rudie) I've done that very thing Cammy, wailing I mean...after I had my own personal time with the bees...things didn't turn out so well for me and I found myself literally howling while I was alone in my house.

(helena) lovely rudie, I love that idea.

(joyful) &and the incredible idea about placing the paper outside in that it will eventually break down...so hopefully, the pain has dissipated along with the paper.

(rudie) sounds wild womanish, but I tell you it helped me.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) {{rudie}} it is cleansing, for sure...thats releasing, and ya know, many of you may have seen me tell people in this chat room or on the message board that a good way to release grief or fears or hurt or anger is to write it down...let it all out...then burn the letter when you are done and say a prayer of forgiveness and healing and love as your thoughts and prayers are literally released to the air.

(helena) That is so healing Cammy. I have done burning rituals... written journals, letters, etc. and watching them burn.

(BJM) May was very empathic and felt everyone's pain intensely

(joyful) The interesting part about the book being set in 1964 is that it works then....it wouldn't work in the 70's or later.

(rudie) I also would like to throw this out there ..as a question...I personally have never heard of it before&'kneeling on grits'

(Dr_D) lol& old school punishment.

(BJM) I'd never heard of that either, but then I'm from the north!

(rudie) the concept just kind of blew my mind, and made me think of the cruelties that we can dream up for others.

(joyful) Sue Monk Kidd has said that the kneeling on grits came from her imagination...

(helena) what are grits?

(BJM) Really joy?! It's hominy Helena.

(joyful) &it wasn't something that ever happened to her, or that she had even heard about before.

(Monark) I had heard of kneeling on cat litter before.

(Promogal) Or cinders

(rudie) its a southern food helena&

(Peps) I'm not sure I wanna kneel on either.

(rudie) wow Monark that is amazing.

(BJM) I'll bet it would hurt though.

(Dr_D) similar to cream of wheat

(joyful) helena, grits are very finely ground corn...about the consistency of kosher salt...maybe a little finer.

(helena) okies ty

(Promogal) I'm not southern....but after tasting grits...I'd say they make better kneelers....lol...no offense to southerners.

(Dr_D) depends on how you eat them&

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) that grits thing was new to me...and sounded very degrading and painful. My parents just made me go cut a switch from the yard and bring it to them...haaaa. That was bad enough...haaa

(joyful) lol promo...try them with cheddar cheese...

(Dr_D) &some with salt pepper and butter&

(BJM) I'm not fond of the taste either&

(Dr_D) others with butter, sugar and milk

(BJM) &they are a bit glassy when uncooked though.

(Promogal) Maybe if they were smothered in cheese, sugar, milk and apple pie...???

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Grits with milk, sugar and butter...yummmm!

(rudie) The reason I mention this is...what do you think allowed Lily to survive and even thrive in spite of that special pain that T. Ray placed in her life?

(BJM) She hung a lot of hope on the encouragement of that one teacher.

(rudie) Which one Bette?

(Dr_D) Her strong will...and love for her life...

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Rudie...her strength of spirit helped her to survive.

(joyful) rudie, I think Lily was a survivor.  I think she had a very rich interior life that allowed her to leave her 'real' life and grow inside.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) BJM yes, her teacher...that teacher's comments were her lifeline.

(BJM) the teacher who told her that she destined for better things than beauty school. The one that made her believe that she could be a writer.

(helena) I along with many kids were forced to scrub floors with toothbrushes for penance .... Maybe kneeling on the grits is meant in a similar way?

(rudie) That's it I think Dr_D...that is it exactly, she was stronger than anything T Ray threw at her.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) helena...and VERY symbolic, too...the kneeling...penance.

(rudie) penance...hmmm never thought of that one&

(BJM) I had to kneel with my nose against the wall.

(rudie) &it is rather penitent.

(helena) Well they said penance ... we said punishment.

(joyful) Especially since T Ray knew that Lily was responsible for Deborah's death&

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) There was alot of references in different ways in the book to Catholic rituals and traditions...the kneeling for penance being one of them, I think.

(Peps) gee I had it easy.  I just got thumped senseless!

(joyful) &he probably wanted her to pay for it somehow.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) lol Peps

(helena) ((Peps)))

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) joyful...Ohhhh yes, I totally agree...he held that grudge.

(Dr_D) I always thought throughout that he killed her and led her to believe that she did it&

(green) Lily was slowly learning to love herself, and to know that she had much to contribute to the world.

(helena) me too ... I just feel so many parallels.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Plus...we found out that Lily looked like Deborah as well, which only reminded TRay daily of Deb being gone.

(Monark) I did too, Dr D

(BJM) me too DrD

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) DrD...I had the VERY same thought as well...that really HE did it and blamed it on Lily so he wouldn't go to jail. I'm not sure Lily really did it...

(rudie) Why do you think it was, or is, important for women to come together? What do you make of May, August and June? How did they help Lily transform her life and that of Rosaleen?

(Dr_D) and also remember him going over it with her..."in case someone would ask"...like it was being rehearsed.

(joyful) "I sort of forgot where I was.  With my eyes closed, I slowly raised my arms, weaving them through the bees, until finally I stood with them stretched out from my sides in a dreamy place that I'd never been before.  My neck rolled back and my mouth opened.  I was floating somewhere, somewhere that didn't rub too close against life."

(BJM) That's a great passage. I really recommend the audio version - it was read really well.

(joyful) Lily often went into herself...when she went into the woods...her imagination on 'the road'...etc

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) It is important for women to come together to replenish emotional self...I thought May, August and June are typical of Southern families...black or white...especially in that day and age. Stick together, thick or thin...each with their own strengths...and weaknesses...and gifts to share.

(rudie) Sorry Cammy that question kinda got lost ...but I think its important and I put it here for a reason.

(helena) I have this song singing in my head right now, its I am Woman .. by Helen Reddy

(joyful) May, June and August reminded me of my grandmother and her sisters alot.  They were German white women, though...lol

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) joyful...yes, she went to a meditative state...

(thyme) Were they all fictional characters? Or is it possible Sue Monk Kidd could have used real people to base some of her characters on?

(joyful) thyme, she said not

(rudie) jvp chatroom/website often reminds me of the honeybee society.

(Peps) Maybe a combination of people to form each character, rather than one individual only?

(thyme) ok, I was just curious about May, Aug, and Jun.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Thyme...as I'm sure any good writer does, these characters are so rich Sue HAD to have inspiration from real people...

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) lol rudie...YES...haaaaa.

(rudie) Its communication depends on, " an innate ability to encode and decode information...the ability to send and receive messages."

(joyful) She did say that some of the traits from people she knew would creep into her characters.

(rudie) I think when we are all cool with each other, the hive hums.

(helena) I had some really strong positive women role models ... I got to thinking, well if they love me, then I can love me too. I honestly used to think I wasn't worth it and they helped to change all that

(Dr_D) ((helena))

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) rudie...I totally agree...and the nectar of our love and prayers and joy here is a sweet salve to many people.

(rudie) that is what Augusts message to lily was...I love you warts and all.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) {{helena}}

(Dr_D) well said Cam

(helena) I love that saying rudie.

(rudie) Let me end up this honeybee chat with a finally question&

(sunrise) ditto helena

(helena) I often say, nuts bolts and all.

(rudie) If you where to project into the future...make a prediction, where do you see lily?
Honeybee keeper? Married to Zack? Raging at TRay?

(joyful) I see her as a writer.

(BJM) she's definitely writing.

(Dr_D) Right there where she was&writing and loving...

(BJM) What amazing material she has!

(joyful) I think her rage at T Ray had burned out by the end of the book, don't' you?

(helena) I haven't read it yet, but id say healing, loving and forgiving...leading a 'rich' life.

(rudie) I for the life of me can't see her pulling that trigger.

(BJM) I think she came to some understandings joy

(thyme) helena, me either, but I was going to say 'flying with her spirit guides.' lol

(helena) maybe even a foster parent

(Dr_D) yes...she finally stood up to him and defeated him (in her mind)&

(rudie) I think it did too joyful

(Monark) I can't either, rudie

(Dr_D) &but she has a tendency of saying to herself what she wants to hear....lol

(rudie) Kidd has said that she mourned the ending of the book, like leaving old friends&

(joyful) rudie, I thought T Ray killed Deborah myself.  In fact, I still think that even though the author said that Lily pulling the trigger was one thing she knew from the beginning.

(rudie) &many have asked her to write a sequel.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) I think she became the daughter the Calendar Sisters never had and took over the bee business...and stayed in touch with Zach as he made a success of being a lawyer... and as August and Rosaleen got into their old age, Lily then became THEIR caregiver...

(rudie) I wanted to believe that too joyful I'm not sure...can't see 4-year-old Lily pulling that trigger though.

(joyful) Just the recoil alone would make a lasting memory&it was one of the weak points in the book.

(thyme) joyful, or the strong point, leaving it up to the reader.

(Dr_D) His reenactment of the semi attack on Lily at the end sort of gives way to the possibility that he may in fact had killed his wife.

(helena) All I know is that if you are told something often enough it ends up becoming your truth ... until you learn differently.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Amen helena!

(rudie) Maybe DrD, but I may be writing the book myself with that very thought...don't want to believe it if you know what I mean.

(joyful) that's what I thought Dr D after I had read it.  Especially since Lily makes a point of saying you could never really believe anything T Ray told you

(helena) true story Cammy ... living proof here that it can be done successfully!

(BJM) ((helena))

(joyful) The symbolism throughout the book was phenomenal.

(thyme) This chat site is so honey and vinegar...honey right now and I love it...  the book fits right in...bees. lol

(Dr_D) &and some of the sayings, quotes as well.

(rudie) Anyway....ty for making this a lovely book chat group. I lead these on a monthly basis with my own students who get into total rants...its great!

(joyful) I wonder how Sue was able to keep track of it all?

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) DrD...Yes I felt that last little reenactment by TRay was his last time to get a dig into Lily...leave her with something negative...because he didn't like that she had found such a great life for herself.

(Dr_D) true

(sunrise) ((rudie)) GREAT job...

(helena) ((rudie)) that was awesome. xoxo

(JulieD) Rudie you have made this book chat really buzz. ty for a great chat.

(joyful) Do you think Lily had a relationship with T Ray after the book ended?

(Dr_D) she is a loving person ...so she probably did.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) joyful...I think TRay may have initiated a relationship down the road...I'd like to think. However, I think Lily kept her distance...

(Dr_D) nah...not sweet, loving. Lily...lol

(joyful) yeah, you are probably right Dr D

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Okay...before we go& I have one question myself that I'd love your thoughts on...and I want to let you know about the next upcoming Saturday events.

(joyful) go Cammy go!

(BJM) I am Cammy.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) This is one I found at the back of my copy of the book...it had a list of discussion questions& and it has been buggin' me cuz I can't come to a decision...haaa Here is the question... Who is the queen bee in this story?

(rudie) I saw it too

(Dr_D) Black Madonna of course

(thyme) aw, not May?

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) DrD...Interesting...I didn't think of that.

(rudie) I'm saying the black Madonna, Mary, the feminine divine.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) thyme...that is who I'm leaning towards...is May. Let me share why I think it is May.

(thyme) I don't even know exactly why I said that. LOL

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) thyme...you are in my head, baby...poor thing...haaa

(thyme) lol

(BJM) I agree on the black Madonna.

(rudie) They are mostly, black Madonna's, in European culture...I have one over my bed.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Okay...I think it may be May because in the book, August discusses that the queen has all these attendants that are there for her only...and if the queen dies, then the attendants and workers "leave"...there is a change, in other words. After May died, look at who left and all the changes. That is my theory...haaa The obvious choice would be August...however, I can see the idea that is the Lady of Chains

(joyful) An argument can be said for Deborah also but then from your comment, Lily too -- all the women as Lily's attendants&

(rudie) I'm sticking with Mary in chains&

(joyful) &but I like Mary in Chains also.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) joyful...yes, this is why it is buggin' me...haaa. If you put the comments about the "bees" behavior described in the book in context to the characters, it could go alot of ways...haaa.

(joyful) yes, Cammy.  Because with Lily, her life becomes the honey.

(rudie) &besides those women are all still living in that house in my mind.

(Monark) I think they each take turns being queen bee when they need to.

(JulieD) I love to see questions in the blurb like that. It is so enticing to read the book to see.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) Okay...that was my one question...thanks for sharing... Monark...you could be right about taking turns.

(rudie) In the words of Sue Monk Kidd, " I leave you all with the true smell of South Carolina..........Jasmine"

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) {{rudie}} this was awesome...thank you

(BJM) ((rudie)) see? Great fun!! Good job!!

(joyful) thanks rudie for leading the discussion.

(rudie) nobody asked me if I liked the book&.

(thyme) lol rudie

(joyful) did you like the book?

(sunrise) ((rudie)) u need a great job...ty

(JulieD) lol I hope you did rudie

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) lol rudie...did you like the book? haaaa

(rudie) I love to leave em wondering!

(joyful) rudie, if you say 'no' I will laugh.

(rudie) I read all the blurbs on it (pro and con) before I settled on it.

(Dr_D) Nice Job Rudie!

(helena) ((rudie)) thank you so much!

(rudie) ty DrD

(BJM) that's why listening to it was so good I think Cammy, first person.

(joyful) the first person also allowed for some things to not be quite 'right' as we never see things in our lives exactly as the truly are.

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) joyful...never thought of it that way...cool

(thyme) joyful, that's a good point

(Dr_D) Lets take a vote...."Did he kill her"??

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) DrD...my vote is YES...

(Peps) I'll vote yes he did * no idea who, how, or why but that isn't gonna stop me *

(rudie) goodbye all, ty for coming and I will see you at the next chat&I had a ball.

(Dr_D) Thank you Rudie

(JulieD) ty rudie love you

(thyme) I'm glad I was here, ty rudie.

(sunrise) bye ((rudie))  ty

(afire) wonderful chat rudie

(helena) see you rudie ... thank you so much

(Peps) (( rudie ))

(CAMMY_WebAdmin) bye Rudie...thank you!!

(joyful) great discussion

(rudie) Aahhhh....that smell of jasmine!!